#181 | What does it mean to be a Black woman in fundraising today?
Dominique Calixte is the Associate Director of Annual Giving and Special Events at YW Boston, the oldest YWCA in the nation. For more than 150 years, YW Boston has been working to eliminate racism and empower women. Our conversation focused on answering the question of what it means to be a Black woman in fundraising today and how our sector can create more opportunities for women like Dominique as well as other POC who desire to work in our space.
Dominique and I covered a lot of territory in this conversation, and neither of us were shy about our opinions. We discussed whether the sector’s aspirations for more diversity, equity and inclusion will resolve themselves as long as we rely on arms-length fundraising and practices that minimize meaningful engagement between us and the donor. I appreciated our agreement that POC who aspire to be most successful in this field should seek out and insist upon donor-facing opportunities as opposed to those who are behind the scenes.
The Fundraising Talent Podcast is produced by Responsive Fundraising. If you are interested in partnering with a member of our team, will be happy to volunteer the time to explore how we might partner together. As always, we are grateful to OneCause for being our podcast sponsor.
Podcast Conversation Transcript
Jason: Hi, Dominique. I am delighted to have you on the Fundraising Talent podcast with me this morning. Before we jump into our topic which I'm excited to dive into with you this morning, why don't you just introduce yourself to our listeners?
Dominique: Yeah, I'm so excited to be on here with you as well. So I am Dominique Calixte, I am a Boston native, a proud Boston native at that, so there will be no Boston sports slander here on this podcast today. I work at the YW Boston currently, I'm the associate director of annual giving and special events there. So I spend all of my time getting to connect with our individuals and our foundations and corporate sponsors while also getting to plan our incredible mission-driven events, which really gets me going as a fundraiser.
Additionally, I'm just passionate about the non-profit space. I've kind of been in the non-profit space for a while, both professionally and in my like personal capacity. So I am deeply rooted in the sector and I just want to see it continue to thrive.
Jason: So Dominique, I have had guests, I'm very familiar with our YW here where I live, and I think I have had guests representing the YMCA both here in the United States and in Canada, but I don't think people out there out in the world if they're not familiar with the YW understand sort of the distinctives between the two organizations, because they're very different organizations, different agendas. It's not just one organization for men and one organization for women, the very different history. Would you mind just sort of bringing people up to speed on that?
Dominique: Yeah, so it's really funny that you mentioned that because often times when people hear that I work at the YW their instant thing is, "Oh, you guys are a gym for women," because ...
Jason: Right, exactly.
Dominique: ... the YMCA is now just a gym, and there are lots of programming. But the YWCA actually took a different turn. So our mission is to empower women and eliminate racism with a particular focus on women of color. So we are really looking at the intersectionality of gender and race and really trying to do the work to make sure that the barriers that are there for women, and in particular women of color, are alleviated. So that looks like offering a range of DEI services, so we offer workshops on implicit bias, we offer a series of workshops that allow your organization whether you're a for-profit or a non-profit to go through and kind of figure out where your organization is with their journey in DEI for the organization so that you can build a more inclusive and equitable place so that your organization can ultimately thrive.
Jason: The way you explain that is exactly the way I probably walked into the YWCA for the first time here in our local community is I assumed it was a gym for women. And I got to know some of the local leadership, I don't know, a decade or so ago and got my head wrapped around. So it has to be an organization that's particularly relevant at a time such as this, am I right?
Dominique: Oh, yeah. We, particularly for our organization since we are specifically working in DEI services we've seen a lot of organizations coming to us asking for resources so that they can talk about the variety of things that we have going on, whether it's the public health crisis because public health also ultimately relates to race relations and everything else that's going on. And then there's also the fact that we have the killings of Breonna Taylor, George Floyd and so many more. And so folks are looking for those resources on how to have those conversations with their staff.
And we have a number of resources that can support organizations out there trying to have those conversations with their staff, and also not just having those conversations now but making sure that those conversations are embedded in their work values so that they have a culture where people feel comfortable and know that they can go to their leadership and have a conversation about whatever is the new pertinent topic around DEI and feel that they are going to feel valued and affirmed for their opinion on this.
Jason: Yeah. So I think a good way for me to tee up your question for you is to just ask you, Dominique, what we're going to talk about for 20, 25 minutes maybe you could tee up that idea with just answering the question what does it mean for you, a black woman, to be working today as a fundraiser?
Dominique: Sure. So do you want me to just ...
Jason: Yeah, just tackle it and I'll keep you going.
Dominique: Okay, great.
Jason: I'm sure you've got ... I'm sure, because I've been in fundraising long enough to know, and I am a white straight male so I know everything that comes with my privilege, my posture, my place in the world. And I don't think enough people sort of, we'll call it my side of the aisle, really grasp sort of what it means to be in your seat, so let's give you the platform to help us catch some people up. How's that sound?
Dominique: Yeah, great. So as it is today with everything that's going on I think my role as a fundraiser has really like ... really been moving for me especially given that in a space like fundraising I'm often the minority, I am the woman in the room, I am the person of color in the room, and I'm often the youngest person in the room. Typically fundraising is just to be frank it's old white males.
Jason: Right.
Dominique: And that's how it's been for years, that's what the institution was built off of. So coming into the space instantly it was like, "This is not the space for me. I'm not staying in fundraising forever." Everyone thinks that I'm great at it, but like it's alienating and I felt alone so often, and I felt like my voice wasn't going to have an impact because everyone wanted to hear from the white male who's the expert, and even though I've had a number of years and a number of experiences in this sector my voice wasn't the expert in the room because I'm just not deemed the expert just solely based off of like the different biases that people carry within the space. And that's just something that continues to be perpetuated in the non-profit sector. Like as much as we are a sector like focused on social good and wanting to create an impact, it's one of the things that we still haven't been able to kind of move the needle on. There's still this bias and this very like alienating aspect of fundraising that really affect women, and especially affect women of color.
Jason: I tend to be ... so I have made fundraising sort of like, and obviously, I've made it ... it's been a successful two decade career for me, but I've also sort of made it an academic study. And I think in some ways part of fundraising's identity is tied up in marginalization as well. What's your thoughts on that?
Dominique: Yeah, well, I think that in general because the system and the institution of fundraising was set up because there was a marginalized community and folks wanted to do better by that community, but also by doing better by that community they are like enforcing the fact that they have power because they have the dollars. And I think that's something that's continued even in the way that we practice our fundraising.
So I always look at my interactions with my funders and with my individuals who are coming in and wanting to support my organization, I always try and go into the conversation and think that we're working shoulder to shoulder, like we're on equal playing field even though we're coming from a variety of different backgrounds, but that's not always the case on the other end of the table. I think that oftentimes when I walk into a room as a fundraiser they're like, "Oh, it's so great that you're able to give back to your community like this." I know you've had such a different experience and it's almost as if like you're belittling my craft or my ability to be a fundraiser because I'm coming from the community that you are hoping to serve and you still have this power over me.
Jason: So as me a white straight male, fundraiser, who perhaps let's say for instance I'm interviewing you for a job or perhaps I'm interviewing with you, what do I need to understand about your lived experience in fundraising that a guy like me maybe doesn't understand?
Dominique: Well, I think that oftentimes when it comes to understanding my lived experience or other women of color's lived experience people come into it like I'm at a disadvantage. And I don't look at my lived experience as a different disadvantage. I actually look at my experience as like I was afforded a lot of opportunities that others weren't able to have. For instance, I grew up in a Haitian-American household and so I grew up speaking both English and Creole, and then understanding little bits of French, so like I'm trilingual in a sense. And people don't look at that as an added value to like my lived experience, that I'm well versed in a variety of cultures and I'm able to bring that to my experience, it's always like, "Oh, you had such a hard time growing up in the city or you didn't get this or you didn't get that." Everyone's so deficit based when it comes to looking at my lived experience, but I don't look at my lived experience as a deficit.
Jason: Yeah, I love that you went there. So I was in urban education for about six or eight years of my professional career, and I took some classes, some post-grad classes at Temple and learned a lot about this idea of the difference between asset-based and deficit-based thinking as it applies to basically marginalized students, and public education is usually the context that you hear this, oftentimes the context you hear at first.
And I tend to think that that's actually the way that for those of us who are in consulting with the non-profit sector actually approach our clients, is from a deficit-based sort of mindset. So we approach the client with the assumption that the organization doesn't have what it needs. It doesn't have the donors that it needs, doesn't have the infrastructure that it needs, doesn't have the technology that it needs, doesn't know how to supervise people, doesn't have the right people on their staff. Have you seen that?
Dominique: I definitely have seen that, and I also find that it's super hard for me as someone who like doesn't see my experience and the experience of the communities that are similar to the communities that I've grown up in, I don't see them as a deficit. So when I go about my fundraising I don't try and speak from a deficit perspective, and so I always find that I'm butting heads with some of the more traditional fundraisers where it's like, "Well, this is the language that we use so that we can get funded." But at the same time like you could still speak from a more asset-based point of view and still portray the need that the community needs.
While, yes, they have this, this and this and they're rich for this, but we want to be able to provide them more so that they are able to do more. It's always that, "They don't have this so they can't do that," and that language like I know for myself growing up if I heard that I would feel lesser about myself. And that's not what I want to do with my practice. I want to make sure that because I'm fundraising for an organization they are able to uplift their constituents; they're able to bring more empowerment into those communities.
And by focusing on such a deficit-based we as fundraisers aren't doing that. And I think that's one of the biggest assets of being a fundraiser the ability to empower a community without having to literally be on the programmatic side of the work. You're taking it from a more macro level and you're able to support and uplift and empower.
Jason: So let's go a little deeper on that, because I don't know if I think all of our listeners are connecting the dots, and I know you and I are connecting the dots, but some people absorb that deficit way of thinking into their identity. I mean, that would certainly be a way that any marginalized group can sort of live their life, and so they've sort of become the victim of their circumstances. And I think that we in fundraising and certainly we in the broader non-profit sector sometimes do that too, and I think that's that embedded language that you're telling your ... when they're filling out a grant application not to put in there, am I right?
Dominique: Yeah, definitely. I want to urge fundraisers to move away from this deficit-based, because if we continue to perpetuate this deficit then our funders are also going to start thinking that way, and that it's going to just continue the cycle of this deficit-based language and considering those communities at a deficit. And yes, you may think that they need more, but you're not acknowledging what they already have and what's so important and valuable about those communities. And that's what makes those communities important and why you want to uplift and empower them.
So like while, yes, speaking from a deficit-based really drives home the point and you get to pull on those heart strings, but you're also by talking from a more asset point of view, asset-based point of view, you're able to really talk about why making this impact is going to be all the better. And that's really what I see the big point of fundraising and filling out these grant applications or talking to your donors is about, you're supposed to really show them that there's an opportunity to make an impact so that there's just more good in the world. And instead you're perpetuating the same institutionalized opinion of communities that you deem lesser, but there's no real reason to deem them lesser because they don't have, what, a $15 million endowment for their city so they can't offer the same programs as the town a couple miles over, like that's not a fair assessment and it's just going to keep us in this cycle of like, "Oh, we need to help them and not empower them so that they're actually going to feel the impact that you're hoping to achieve by donating."
Jason: So I have talked to other black fundraisers here on the podcast about this particular observation of mine, and I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, but it's the idea that not enough ... so of the black fundraisers that are in the field now, my concern is that not enough of them are in donor-facing roles, which is to say they're in support roles but not even necessarily just in support roles, they're basically behind the scenes. And perhaps in very strong well-compensated leadership behind the scene roles, but they're not sitting across the lunch table with the donor. You follow me?
Dominique: Yeah, no, that's definitely true. I find that oftentimes fundraisers of color they get stuck in these data roles, and that's not to say that the data roles aren't important or like the administrative side. I mean, I spent years in fundraising and this is the like one of my first roles where I've been able to do a lot of the frontline work. And it took me a long time to get there, and I'm not saying that the organizations that I worked with before were biased against me being a frontline fundraiser, but it just wasn't a part of the role and it never was a growth opportunity that was presented to me. And I think that happens to a lot of fundraisers of color, and I think a lot of it stems from, "Well, you're not going to have the same connection that Sally over here is going to have because she grew up in the same town and they had this connection or they were both debutantes in this town together," or there's just that ... there's something that I'm not going to have. And because I don't have that it's, "Oh, she's not going to be able to connect with them."
But like as a fundraiser that is my job, finding a way to connect with folks. And I'm able to connect with folks about lots of different things, like just because I didn't go to somebody's debutante ball or I didn't go to the same country club doesn't mean that I'm not able to connect with Billy who works over at that high investment firm, like I can have a conversation about a plethora of things, but you're not giving me that opportunity to try and make those connections.
Jason: So first thing I can say is that the one white female debutante type that I know that grew up in our local community or grew up in a southern community but lives in our local she'd be the worst fundraiser on the planet. But the other thing I can say is that I think I have done enough fundraising, most fundraising happens, that I have done, happens in very level what I call sort of a level field, right? Very neutral places. And a lot of your most generous people are usually people who've sort of pulled themselves up by their bootstraps who sort of experience those deficit sides of life. Yes, there are places in life where we're lacking things. And they've pulled themselves up.
And I think that when we draw the assumption, so if I was a hiring manager and if I'm drawing an assumption that because you're a white female who was a debutante that you're going to be all that more remarkable than somebody else in fundraising. It's probably misguided.
Dominique: It's definitely misguided. I've had fundraising opportunities where I've been in the background but I somehow somewhere have connected with one of the attendees of the event, and we happen to get talking and we've connected better than the front-line fundraiser.
Jason: Exactly, right.
Dominique: And they found like they instead of emailing the front-line fundraiser they would email me because we were able to build that connection, because I'm not coming at them with this like very scripted like, "So did you go to the golf club today and hit the ball and yada, yada?" Like, no, I'm coming from a very genuine perspective and I want to have those genuine connections with my funders and with the individuals who are interested in supporting my organization. And I think that's where people who are hiring are like, "Well, that's not what a funder wants." But that's exactly what a funder wants, like a funder wants to build genuine relationships with their organizations that they're supporting.
Jason: Yeah.
Dominique: And just because I had a different lived experience doesn't mean I'm not going to be able to have a genuine conversation with a funder who didn't grow up in the same lived experience as me, like there are other ways that we can connect our two different lived experiences. And I think that's kind of the disconnect when it comes to hiring front-line fundraisers especially front-line fundraisers of color, because folks think that these front-line fundraisers are not going to be able to build those genuine relationships.
Jason: Right.
Dominique: But in my time I've been able to build so many genuine relationships with my funders. And like most of the time I wasn't in a front-line fundraising position, I just happened to be walking by and they're like, "Hey, we've seen you walk by a few times. What's your story?"
Jason: Yeah. I think we've got to make a connection between what is the life experience of that donor, and if we're not doing enough donor-facing work we as the organization collectively are not doing enough donor-facing work and we don't connect their life experiences with generosity, with just the desire to be generous and like the notion that they would ask you for your story, because they've lived a story and they know what got them there. And so oftentimes I think the people that are the most receptive are the people that are going to want to sit down across the lunch table with someone like yourself no differently than they want to sit across the table from myself. And the debutante is the last person they're going to sit across the lunch table with.
Dominique: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day debutante ... and I'm not saying that she's not going to be able to build a genuine connection, but like the genuine connection that she's going to build doesn't necessarily align with a genuine connection that the donor is looking for. Like, I think that oftentimes people have this very prescribed view of what kind of connection a donor is looking for, and that's not always the case, and like we need to shift our thinking on that. And when we shift our thinking on that and start getting a variety of people in those front-line roles with different lived experiences, then the sector as a whole is going to see that there's going to be deeper engagement with our funders and deeper engagement with those individuals because those genuine relationships that are being built are just the catalyst for more.
Jason: Okay, so here's the brass tacks on this concept, this conversation that we're having, so I was sitting in the audience with a group, there were three black individuals, black fundraising leaders on a panel, and I asked the question and I stumbled through my words and it was an awkward moment but I knew the point I was trying to get across and maybe you can help me get it across a little better, but it's the idea that if a black fundraiser is interviewing for a role that they would actually forego compensation in order to be in a more donor-facing role in order to see the long-term value and impact of that donor-facing work on their career, which is to say, for example, if you're interviewing for a data role and you're perfectly qualified, would you forego that role in order to at a cost of losing say 20% income to take a donor-facing role that perhaps may better position you long-term to do work that quite honestly in my mind the marketplace is going to pay for?
I think the marketplace is always going to pay for donor-facing work above all else. And so if I was advising a young black, say a young black female fundraiser I would say, "At whatever cost, get into the donor-facing roles first." What's your thoughts on that?
Dominique: I mean, I agree. I think that getting into the donor-facing roles is important. I think at the end of the day like, yes, like the data is important and you need the data, but if you don't have that front-line person to do the actual fundraising then your organization is at a loss.
The thing, though, the one caveat is I don't think that ... I don't like the idea of black fundraisers or even other like POC fundraisers taking a cut for doing the same work as a white fundraiser. And I think that's often the narrative that's happening or the situation that's happening rather, because it's, well, there's always going to be this learning curve that she's going to have, so we're going to dock her.
Jason: Sure, totally.
Dominique: And I think that needs to change. I think that like while ... like, while it's fine to like want to position yourself to be in the front-line position as early on as you can in your career so like thinking through like what's your next role, I mean, as a fundraiser we're zigging and zagging to different organizations so that we can move up, but I think that it's also important to realize that like we shouldn't have to take a pay cut because they deem that you are lesser.
Jason: Yes, right, absolutely, yeah. Help me out with this, in the black community, for example, do we talk about a ... so anyone who gets into the workplace when we're young, get out of college, whatever, we talk about a ladder, is there a different ladder conversation? Because that's kind of what I'm getting at, I'm talking to ... when I was referring the the people who were running the panel were, again, they were three black individuals, and I couldn't articulate my words well enough, I goober it up, and they all looked at me funny. But it's the idea that there's sort of a different ladder, so if I'm a person of color am I trying to climb a different ladder in order to achieve different things I guess is what I'm asking? And it's not just about compensation. So I totally get the compensation, but do you follow my thinking or what I'm wrestling with?
Dominique: Well, I think that, yes, like there is a different ladder, because we're coming into this with a thousand more obstacles than you as like a cis white male or Jane or Sally or whoever, because we were coming from like what is deemed a disadvantage. So we're coming from a less connected society or like a less connected community and there's all these things that have like put us at a disadvantage for these roles, so yeah, we're definitely on a different ladder. And we're dodging various like obstacles and we're dealing with a lot more to get into these roles.
And like I quite honestly think that that's why by the time that you get higher up a lot of these women of color who are fundraisers are tired, and they don't want to stay in the sector because they're tired of having to dodge so many obstacles and having to kind of like deal with this, "Oh, we want you, but we think that there's this growing curve so we're going to dock you here and we're going to require you to do this, that and the third," and that then you're sitting there like, "Well, I thought I was great," and then you get into this situation where like a lot of women of color are dealing with impostor syndrome and the stuff in this sector because they personally start off thinking that they're qualified and they're great and then they're hearing all these different narratives about, "Oh, you don't have enough of this and you don't have enough of that." And it's like all this negative talk thrown at you that you start to like question like, "Do I belong here? Is this my space?"
And again, that's why I think that a lot of women of color are leaving the sector because they're tired. They're tired of hearing that negative talk, and they know that they can go elsewhere. And yes, they're going to deal with a different set of obstacles but they're going to deal with a different set of obstacles with a completely different sector that will likely pay them more. And it's not like an all-encompassing thing, like being a woman of color in this space you're often working with communities that you identify with or like there's some deep connection to the mission that you feel as a person of color, and so your work is all-encompassing for you so you're dealing with this at all aspects of your being and then you're also dealing with this negative talk from your leadership or from other people within the organization that now is affecting how you're starting to value your own self and you're starting to think that you don't belong, where you could just go off and make more money and do something else in a different sector.
And that's not to say that that's my plan, like I hope that I could stay in the non-profit sector, but like I think that a lot of my peers start to think about this because they're tired. And rightly so, it's fair to be tired. It's exhausting to constantly have to kind of defend yourself and say, "I mean, I have a different experience, but I still can do this."
Jason: Is the weariness, the being tired I have always experienced, coming from a guy like me talking to a woman like yourself, is it true to say that a lot of that weariness and that wearing down and that tiredness comes from the internal experience and not the external experience? And what I mean by that is I can see you sitting across the lunch table from a white gentleman that has a lived experience that is opposite of yours, but nine times out of ten those conversations because it's a level playing field, you're literally sitting there both eating a BLT sandwich, are some of the most life-giving sort of career-informing sort of conversation - that's not where you get tired, am I right?
Dominique: Well, I think that it can be tiring to have those conversations because it's like you're always having to use your experience to teach somebody else.
Jason: Are you teaching him how to sit there or does he know how to sit there?
Dominique: I mean, he knows how to sit there, but then within sitting there and you're like having conversations with each other the differences in your lived experiences will come up, and then there's the risk of having to explain something.
Jason: Everything.
Dominique: Yeah, explain everything about your existence. And that's what's tiring. And it's like sitting on edge knowing that there's the possibility that that's coming is also exhausting, because you have to stay ready.
Jason: So I mean, when you and I set up this interview, for example, you acknowledged yourself as a woman of color and so that's kind of the nature of the conversation, but sometimes do you want to sit down at that lunch table with that donor and not have a conversation about the color of your skin? Is that what you're saying?
Dominique: I'm not saying that I don't want to have those conversations, but what I'm saying is I want to have those conversations and know that my leadership and my organization sees the value in me having those conversations.
Jason: Okay, so does he see that though? He's the donor, does he see that? If he asks you that question, if you're okay with having the conversation, is he asking you that question because he sees it as an asset or is he curious and you're like, "Yeah, yeah," what's going on there with him?
Dominique: Well, I think that oftentimes it's like the curiosity. I think that the curiosity for like for the most part people are trying to come from a well-informed and well-intended place, but it's from a curiosity standpoint. And because our sector has perpetuated this deficit-based language for so long, his curiosity can come at like, "Well, I know that there's a deficit," and he's very focused on like getting to that deficit even if I'm coming at it from an asset point of view. And that's where like fundraisers of color are getting tired. Like, there needs to be a shift from the top around how we're doing our fundraising so that when I'm going and having this conversation with a funder it's not as exhausting because the language isn't already different from how I'm speaking about my work in my community.
Jason: So let me back up on that question then, back on the internal/external and maybe you're helping me think differently about this, but the curiosity that he's demonstrating there at the lunch table, is that curiosity exhausting or is it the curiosity that sometimes you ... and I just don't ... again, here I am, a privileged white male, so maybe I'm not connecting the dots, but I just don't ... One of things, back 10 years ago, for example, we did a study, we in the fundraising space did a study that described curiosity as like one of the strongest characteristics you could have, so it would seem like as long as curiosity is going on at that table whether it's on your part or his that that's probably a rewarding experience.
Dominique: I mean, I think that it's a rewarding experience for the person who is curious and their curiosity is being fulfilled by the conversation. But at the same time as the person who's giving you the information that's fulfilling your curiosity and I'm coming from it from a different perspective than the rest of my sector, so you're coming in and you have different language than the language that I'm using, that's the part that's exhausting. So we're not meeting at the same point.
Jason: Okay, well, then let me put you on the spot - are you curious about him?
Dominique: I mean, yeah.
Jason: Because the study that I'm referring to it was called the curious chameleon study, and it was the idea that the ... and being people of color and all I don't know where the statistics, but they basically showed that the curious chameleons were truly the rock star fundraisers in our space. And so if you were talking to, let's say you were on a platform and you're talking to a large group of women of color in fundraising, are you encouraging them to be curious about ... 80% of their donors could very likely be white males, are you suggesting to them that they can or cannot or should be more or less curious about the donor on the other side of the table?
Dominique: They should absolutely be curious. I think that understanding both sides of like the table is important. And if you're curious about their experience and why they're interested in learning about your organization and the work and impact that it's trying to do then you're going to be able to build those genuine relationships. And that's what your job is as a fundraiser.
But on the flip side, as a fundraiser of color, I'm a fundraiser of color who tries to speak from a very asset point of view when it comes to my community. And that's not the language that's being used in reports, in grant applications and when you're sending out your acknowledgement letters. Me going into that conversation we're not meeting at the same place when it comes to my lived experience and his curiosity or her curiosity.
Jason: And see, now I get to pull back the curtain on one of the projects that I'm working. So Dominique, I think one of the things that we have done, and this is a critique on fundraising, but it's an interesting critique in light of sort of where we find ourselves where we're having these types of conversations. Is it fair to say that when you're ... because you think about that grant, think about the difference between the grant application process which is largely administrated with an internal group of people who are sort of looking at their own ... basically it's you talking with your colleagues, right? You're not actually interacting with anybody on the other side in any real meaningful way, versus that lunch table. And that lunch table is essentially representative of the person who would be making the decision as it relates to that grant.
And I think that if we want to get philanthropy and fundraising where it's going to have to be, and this is where I get in trouble with a lot of our colleagues in this space, I think we're going to have to totally back off the necessity of grant writing and we're totally have to put some hype on the lunch table. Because I don't think we're ever going to get away from the deficit, think about if you and I were consulting together - can you and I actually say to any organization on the planet that they're going to get away from deficit-based thinking if they keep trying to communicate via grant applications?
Dominique: I think that there needs to be a shift in the way that people do the grant applications, and that is we're aways from that, because, again, people are so stuck in the traditional fundraising mindset. So I think the easier place to make that shift like you said is at that table where you're able to have those conversations and you're able to kind of push back on the funders' thinking and then have them start to think in that same light.
Jason: Because the thing is, and this is kind of what, and we didn't get there during this case conference that I was speaking at, but with that panel that I'm referring to I think we as fundraisers are sort of stuck in the status quo definition through which we communicate. So we're stuck in this way of communication, and in some way when we talk about embedment I think there's an embedded deficit type of thinking embedded in the arms length way in which we transact these gifts. And so if we don't prioritize those lunch table conversations so that I, the white male, and you, the black female, can sit across the table and actually relate to each other as real human beings and see each other's assets. I don't think we're going to clean anything up.
Dominique: I mean, what you're describing really focuses on the relationship building aspect of it.
Jason: Yeah. I mean, how can you a person of color tell me that you can build a relationship with anyone, which in most cases if you think about those grant applications, and for our listeners' sake let's forgive our ... let's ask for a pass on picking on grant writing today, but if you think about, you would know that most of those trustees are white, wealthy, they're much older than you and I, they're usually in the later half of life. If you don't sit across the table from those people they're never going to build a meaningful relationship with you, they're never going to understand your lived experiences and quite honestly you're never going to understand theirs.
Dominique: Yeah, definitely. I think those are the folks that are the hardest to reach. And I mean, especially for me who I am definitely much younger than your typical grant foundation trustee where our experiences are completely different, we're talking about like years and years of like change that has happened over time. So what my lived experience is, is going to be so different from theirs, and quite frankly, it's going to be a bigger gap of learning for both parties.
Jason: Totally. I'm reading a book right now, and this is a guy who wrote in the 1950s, anthropologist, and he's studying the difference between the American culture and the Japanese culture. And it's where this whole notion of high context and low context communication came from, and he's talking about sort of the layering, the implicit conversation that happens in relationships that's not verbal, that cannot be expressed on paper, for example, that continues to happen in Japanese culture that we in American culture, for example, do not experience because we think we can express everything that's necessary to be expressed on paper, for example.
And I think this critique that you and I are sort of simmering on here, and when we think of the black lives matter and we think about all the other social unrest that's sort of interrelated with that, we think about this conversation, and I've heard this about the millennials, you're a millennial, I think we're becoming a more high context culture. And consequently, we're going to have to make sure that we can navigate that implicit communication that's going on that you cannot put on that sheet of paper.
Dominique: Yeah, you're completely right. I think that as we like shift into different generations entering the work force there hasn't been a shift in how we're thinking about philanthropy. And that's part of the problem.
Jason: Well, you and I are going to have to find a platform that we can share, because I think we're on the same page.
Dominique: It sounds like we are.
Jason: Yeah. And I think ... see, here's the thing, Dominique, so I teach these seminars, right? Most of my listeners know that I teach these seminars and there's always a woman of color in the room, and I'm always thinking ... because I had a woman of color, Danielle was my boss when I was ... in my first major gift role. She was a woman of color who afforded me the first major gift role, and it was a career-changing experience that really enlightened me. But it was not only that because she put me in a role, let me step up to sort of a new rung on that ladder if you will, but she and I worked together a lot, so we would travel the country and make major gift calls and those sorts of things.
And so it was very enlightening to think, and I continue to think about this a lot, I discussed this relationship that I had with Danielle periodically with guests, it was interesting to watch how our donors interacted with me, interacted with her, how she interacted with our donors and so forth. And as all my listeners know, I'm just an advocate for this lunch table.
Have I worn you out or you worn me out or what?
Dominique: I think that we're both on the same page. It sounds like you're an advocate for learning and unlearning, and that's what I want to see our sector do. I want us to learn and unlearn some of the stuff that doesn't fit our sector anymore, and that's only going to happen at that lunch table it sounds like.
Jason: Yeah. Dominique, we're going to have you back and we're going to kind of shift gears on another conversation on very millennial ... a millennial-focused conversation because you also ... you've suggested that you've got some opinions on that as well and I'd be delighted to continue that conversation, so let's have you back in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, it has been a pleasure. Thank you for putting up with my probing. And you're always welcome back.
Dominique: Thank you so much. It was great to have this conversation with you.